Hacker Cinema
Downfall
Der Untergang
2004 · Film · 155 min
Directed by Oliver Hirschbiegel
In April of 1945, Germany stands at the brink of defeat with the Russian Army closing in from the east and the Allied Expeditionary Force attacking from the west. In Berlin, capital of the Third Reich, Adolf Hitler proclaims that Germany will still achieve victory and orders his generals and advisers to fight to the last man. When the end finally does come, and Hitler lies dead by his own hand, what is left of his military must find a way to end the killing that is the Battle of Berlin, and lay down their arms in surrender.
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38 comments on Hacker News
The Wind Rises. I love everything about it. Beautiful soundtrack, fun sound design, and a fascinating treatment of various topics from the ethics of engineering to the miracle of flight. The end scene completely wrecks me every time.
The Downfall is one of the best movies about being on the losing side of a war. It’s impressively accurate, and the acting is outstanding.
When I don’t know who I’m watching the movie with, I recommend Snatch or Amélie.
Regular occurrence here in Austria as well. Funnily enough back in school when we watched "Der Untergang" (Downfall), we were escorted out of the movie theatre by policemen right after the movie ended because they'd just found a big WWII bomb nearby at a construction site.
The documentary "Downfall" [0] touches on this.
[0] https://www.netflix.com/title/81272421
"They don't build them like they used to anymore" applies to pretty much everything these days.
+1 for the Downfall documentary on Netflix. Answers a lot of questions.
Are you saying that it is backed by statistics that good CEOs need to be good managers of people and also implying that engineers are not good managers of people? I would be interested in seeing that statistics.
It feels wrong to me. In fact, I would argue that in tech the opposite is true. Go watch 'Downfall',the documentary on Netflix about Boeing and what happened when they dropped their engineering ethos and let in the "people persons" there.
There is that part near the end of 'Der Untergang' (which I think is a fantastic movie for many reasons, and which obviously has nothing to do with Pol Pot) where you can see the ease with which the power hungry were absolutely willing to sacrifice their entire population if it meant that they would hold out a few days longer. The inhumanity of what was happening while at the same time being concerned with their own every day little normal bits of life was such an incredible contrast.
FührerBunker vibes. I guess Steiner is now in charge of the Android division?
EDIT: For those who have not seen the movie, watch "The Downfall" (2004) for a peek at what might be going on in the Trump/Musk/Putin camp right now. Applies to anyone who has a NPD really
Lets see... the most recent comedy movies I've seen...
Knives Out (2019) was probably the one I enjoyed the most.
JoJo Rabbit was trying too hard IMO, but I still smiled/laughed throughout it. WW2 is kinda overdone at this point (though serious films like Downfall are worth revisiting)
Free Guy was fine? Apparently "The Suicide Squad" also counts as a comedy. I guess Deadpool and Deadpool 2 were also fine. Maybe other people are tired of comicbook / superhero movies, but really I'm personally only tired of the "Marvel Formula" (and Deadpool / The Suicide Squad strays pretty heavily from the formula). Going back a bit further is "Jumanji"...
There's a lot of flicks / comedy films out there. Nothing is quite as good as Airplane but I'd say Knives Out is on-par, maybe even better than Clue (1985).
I don't really like the "Despicable Me" series, but my nieces really wanted to watch "Minions: Rise of Gru" and I actually enjoyed that one. (My nieces love this series, so I can say that I've watched all of it and its mostly trash. But Rise of Gru actually got me to laugh)
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I'm no critic. I enjoy just a basic flick now and then. Honestly, I'd rewatch "Knives Out" more than any Adam Sandler movie from the 90s or even Austin Powers. 90s era comedy just didn't mesh well with me, despite me growing up at that time. I do have a soft spot for the dry 80s stuff with Leslie Nielsen, and I guess I really liked Jackie Chan's action/comedies through the 90s and 00s.
I dunno, if I think "90s comedy I enjoyed", I think of Men in Black or Aladdin? Nothing in the list that this author wrote.
One time I made a "Hitler finds out"* meme and uploaded it to youtube. My video immediately got 2 copyright claims on it. One was for the video and was probably by the film rights holders. The other was for the audio and it was this song! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSlbcRumfwk I assumed that this was some kind of scheme. The audio claim has since been removed (not by me and I don't know when).
* https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/hitlers-downfall-parodies
> I have seen perhaps hundreds other far more moving scenes in other WWII movies (everything from Schindler's List to Saving Private Ryan to Downfall) that I far more vividly remember.
It’s completely different. Schindler’s list is great, but reads like a documentary. Downfall is flashy, but lacks the spontaneity of Casablanca, which was filmed in the thick of it. Completely different atmospheres.
Also, if you are into this kind of films, the Pianist is an absolute must-see. I would put it at the same level than Schindler’s List, way above both Saving Private Ryan (which is way, way too much of a Hollywood action movie) and Downfall (which is fine, but really not in the same league).
As people pour in, it appears I am the only one left with contrarian view. I had watched this movie and didn't realize the scene was really all that special. I couldn't even recall it, let alone remember it forever. I have seen perhaps hundreds other far more moving scenes in other WWII movies (everything from Schindler's List to Saving Private Ryan to Downfall) that I far more vividly remember. It feels like one of those fallacies where someone will come up with why certain wine is best in the world and then crowd joins in to agree while everyone else wonders what was so special about it.
Being anti-Hitler and anti-Nazi is 'political' now? They're simply acknowledging the reality that Nazism was an absolute, unmitigated disaster - even, and most surprisingly, for those who might have foolishly expected to benefit from it. That's what those apologetic attitudes are about. If you really wanted to draft a relevant political message from the whole Nazi thing, it would have to be "how the heck do we avoid falling into this awful trap again". The premise of Downfall is not good for that. The film mostly sticks to the historical sources - the crazy, delusional rants that everyone loves to make memes about actually happened, Hitler really said those things. He was quite weak in those circumstances.
> Even Downfall is pretty light on politics, even though it takes place in the Fuehrerbunker itself.
Downfall takes an anti-Hitler and anti-Nazi stance. Just because we all "agree" with the message doesn't change the fact that Hitler is seen as a weak, degenerating, hypocritical man throughout the film.
Who happens to be a good boss to the main character.
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Finally, the secretary openly apologizes for her role in Nazi-ism. The film makes it clear that even "good people" (like the secretary), who end up helping the Nazis in little ways are still partially responsible for the evils the Nazis caused.
The main character never killed anybody. But she helped Hitler write his last will (as well as Joseph Goebbels's last will), and other jobs that a secretary should do. The film is innately bringing to focus the role of the "typical" Nazi. Not the far right but just the little supporters and their role in Nazism. The "good people on the other side", if you will.
And they're openly apologetic. Because even those little ways of getting a job and helping out in little ways was still Nazism, and in support of that awful ideology.
> Is NGE worth watching for someone who never was really into anime?
Maybe? NGE is not very representative of anime in general. Its definitely its own creature.
These days, "anime" lovers like "That Time I was Reincarnated as a Slime", "Naruto", "My Hero Academia", or "Demon Slayer". And back then, this "style" was carried by Sailor Moon or Dragon Ball Z.
You know: powerful hero collects a bunch of things and saves the world kind of plot. None of these shows are anything like NGE. I'd say people who like NGE will probably not like Demon Slayer, and vice versa.
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NGE is an existential mecha-pilot anime about depression, being forced into a losing battle with powers you don't understand. If you feel like dragging yourself through 26 episodes of that, yeah, go ahead.
But this ain't the happy-go-lucky overpowered main character always wins kinda show that's popular by 2020 standards. That's for sure.
Don't get me wrong, I like both style of shows (!!!), and both have their place. But "anime" is so diverse that you really can't compare this story with other great anime stories.
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That being said, I'd say the perfect "starter anime" is "Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood". This show has a lot of the crazy fights you'd see in some of the more battle-oriented anime, but also has some deeper self-introspection that was more common to 90s era anime.
Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood hits a lot of themes and concepts that seem universal, that many people both anime-fans and non-anime fans can enjoy.
EDIT: In particular, the main character: Edward Elric, may be a kid but he grows up through the show and becomes a hero. Not your typical "anime superpower" growth (Naruto/Demon Slayer / Dragonball Z)... but instead actual outlook on life and maturity kind of growth. Yes, its a hero's journey but there's a reason this story is told over and over again, its a classic epic tale setup with widespread appeal.
What's exceptional is that Edward Elric is a mostly mature character even from episode 1. So starting from a largely mature character and seeing him grow even more is quite spectacular honestly. FMA just does the hero's tale extremely well, far better than most typical anime... with a few deconstructive bits thrown in here and there.
NGE is almost a self-loathing kind of story that makes you feel pitiful. Its good at it too, but I don't think it'd be popular or mainstream. NGE is really out there and goes 100% for whatever depressing feeling its trying to drag you into. I really don't think its something I'd typically share (despite its widespread acclaim, it really is a niche-storyline IMO that few people would enjoy).
EDIT: In contrast: FMA does have a couple of self-loathing parts (The early "Tucker" arc is especially a horrific ordeal), but never quite to the degree that NGE ever gets to. Its still horrific what happens in FMA: Brotherhood, but you never really lose hope in Edward Elric. You can root for the hero from the beginning and never lose faith.
In contrast, NGE absolutely expects you to lose faith in Shinji Ikari, his father, and the entire set of humans involved in the plot. These are not good people. You're watching a train-wreck in slow motion. This is very unusual, even by anime standards.
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Lets put this in terms of WW2 movies. There's lots of WW2 movies: like "Downfall / Der Untergang" and "Midway". Both have their benefits, both are WW2 movies.
But "Downfall / Der Untergang" is simply going to be more niche because the depressing stories are just less popular than the mainstream happy / boom boom fighting movies (like Midway).
If you were trying to get people into WW2 movies, would you start them on "Downfall / Der Untergang" ?? Probably not. Similarly, I wouldn't recommend NGE to a beginner anime watcher... I'd start you on something happier and more mainstream.
> It makes you step outside your ordinary reality and truly live in someone else's shoes.
One of the biggest emotional hits to me was "Der Untergang", or "Downfall" in English (aka: Angry Hitler Meme movie). Spending 1-week in Hitler's shoes, with an incredible amount of detail / historical accuracy, brought me a huge amount of appreciation for what was going on during WW2, in a way that few other stories (be it reading, anime, movies, TV-series) have ever affected me before.
Non-fiction, when done well, can give you a hugely different perspective on life.
* Technically, you spend ~1 week in Traudl Junge's shoes, who serves as Hitler's personal secretary. But she was in the room when all major events happened: from Hitler's Birthday (aka: when the Russians started shelling Berlin), to the final defense plans, to the Goring Telegram, to helping Hitler write his final will / testament. To the planning of Hitler's suicide (which wasn't easy in the circumstances). To helping write the last will/testament to Goebbel + those events. To the escape from the bunker while surrounded by Russian troops.
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Since this story is "real", it just hits differently. Even though Hitler + Goebbel were probably the most evil people on Earth at that time... the perspective of "Downfall" was incredibly human. There's a story to be told here about the expectations of leadership, the stress of losing, the worries about your worldview going extinct, etc. etc.
> Reading non fiction is only useful to the extent to which you can apply this information in your daily life.
I hope I'll never be trapped in a bunker contemplating angry Soviet capture/torture vs Suicide. But the story that contemplates the two choices really gives you an understanding of the final WW2 events much better.
Ok, here are some good German movies just from the top of my head:
- The Lives of Others
- The Tin Drum
- Goodbye Lenin!
- Downfall
- The Edukators
- Berlin Calling
- Benny’s Video
What about 1 actor films?
Or the 1939 film "The Women" (no men in the cast!)
Or historical films like "Downfall?" How diverse was Hitler's bunker?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downfall_(2004_film)
Probably one of the best "WWII movies" (it's really only about the final days in the bunker) ever.
> Der untergang is a german movie so they speak German.
Fair point. But I'm sure there are better examples where a film was made by people from country A, and set in country B using actors that speak B-language for realism.
> So are you saying only ukranians should be allowed to make movies about Chernobyl?
"Be allowed" I didn't say. I said it's an opportunity for extra realism you choose to use or not.
> So Americans can only make historical movies about events in America and only Scandinavians can make movies about Vikings?
I'm 100% sure that if Scandinavians did a movie about historical USA it would be in english. But it's beside the point. Again: it's just a choice whether you think the added trouble of finding actors speaking a language and having your audience read subtitles is worth it for the added realism.
Der untergang is a german movie so they speak German.
So are you saying only ukranians should be allowed to make movies about Chernobyl?
So Americans can only make historical movies about events in America and only Scandinavians can make movies about Vikings?
In a realistic movie they'd speak Russian/Ukrainian. I think wrong accents in that case would be ok because only Ukrainians would notice (it won't air in russia I'm guessing).
But Netflix probably wanted well known actors instead, and know lots of people dislike reading subtitles, so chose to use english, which is understandable in some ways. Myself I find documentary(-style) movies in the original language to be much more believable, and reading subtitles is a price well worth paying for e.g. "Der Untergang" and similar.
I think the second idea is the correct one, there are many counterpoints to the first one: you can see the same thing in any culture with the right ingredients, such as Germany in Nazi era (the movie "Downfall" captures the psychological difficulty very well), American prisoners during riots that all lie on the floor because there are consequences for not doing so, or "bending the knee" in Game of Thrones. Any situation where you risk harm to yourself or people that you care about by failing to be obedient, you will do so unless you are willing to suffer whatever the known consequences will be for failing to do so.
> As a westerner, I find it truly amazing that these systems survive at all.
It shouldn't be amazing, as a Westener, considering slavery was legally allowed and enforced in the West for longer than any alternate authoritarian regime in modern times. Just consider slavery in American from 1776-1865... I can't think of any authoritarian regime that lasted that long... North Korean regime (1948-present), Soviet regime (1917-1989), Chinese regime (1949-present), were/are close but still haven't yet achieved the length of authoritarianism exercised over some arbitrary portion of its populace.
That is less than 10 movies and Wir kinder.. is old enough that my mother saw it in the cinema as a youngster. You might find a few more, but "Der Untergang" is on Netflix, not because they were required to, but because it is good.
I fear for the same as a Dane, Danish movies are crap.
>From my experience "symbol X is offensive" doesn't actually help distinguish between malicious and non-malicious people because the thing that makes someone malicious is their actions and views, not the iconography they use to express said actions and views.
I completely agree with this.
I think most content creators make a conscious effort to make their intent known through the work.
For Example, movies like "Inglourious Basterds" or "Downfall" are clearly using Nazi iconography to build the aesthetic of their world without suggesting they support the ideals of the real-world Nazis.
Perhaps a more poignant current example is youtube personality JonTron. The basic gist as I understand it is: He occasionally makes off-color or insensitive jokes that could easily be considered offensive but are generally regarded as OK because the intent is understood to be a place of comedy. Now after defending some racist remarks, his past statements are seen in a new light that makes their original intent less clear.
I do think it's something important to discuss and we clearly can't have a discussion if what we want to talk about is a banned taboo. But I also think it's clearly wrong to treat any hate-speech/iconography as if somehow doesn't have all that extra cultural baggage.
Well what's happening with all the rats leaving the ship it feels more like the "Der Ubergang"
For non-German speakers, its a pun on the German name of the the movie Downfall (Untergang), infamous for it's Hitler in the bunker clip.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downfall_(2004_film)
Atheist downfall? Since when? And what do you mean by 'downfall'? Like, they all started professing a belief in the hereafter, or like the scene in the movie 'Downfall'?
That's not a real Hitler image, it's a photo of a wax figure at "Madame Tussauds" in Berlin. While I don't think this is the right place to use such a photo, I don't think it should be censored.
You probably know the movie "Der Untergang" and all the fake-dub videos on youtube. Guess someone uses an angry Hitler face out of this movie? Most people know that it must be ironical, however…
to cut it short: It's probably unprofessional, maybe childish. But that's not illegal.
They certainly used to have an appeals process, but apparently they no longer do.
I created a 'Downfall' parody video two years ago that was yanked by order of Constantin Films the day after I posted it. The notification from YouTube contained a link to dispute the DMCA notice, which I did, claiming fair use. YouTube restored the video almost immediately.
I would have been pretty pissed if I'd received this notice with no way to appeal the takedown.
Google, are you not even going through the motions of "don't be evil" anymore?
Along the same lines, it's interesting that not only has Constantin Film apparently stopped issuing DMCA notices on the Untergang (Downfall) parody videos, but some of the older ones that were previously DMCA'ed off of YouTube seem to have come back. Maybe it finally occurred to someone at Constantin how many viewers those unlicensed parodies have attracted to their excellent but otherwise obscure movie over the past few years.
I posted one a couple of years ago, myself. It stayed up for about a year, then was yanked in response to a DMCA complaint from Constantin. About a year after that -- meaning just a few weeks ago -- I started getting notifications of user comments again. The video had magically reappeared on YouTube with no intervention or counterclaim on my part.
at the bottom:
> UPDATE: To clear up confusion, this is not a new feature. The dispute process has been in place since Content ID first launched in October 2007. We've changed some text to make that clear.
Interesting though, they use the 'downfall' movie as an example.
The fact that the _Downfall_ producers didn't buy Youtube ads to pop up when the parodies were played just shows how stupid they are. I mean really! How else is a movie about Hitler, in German (!), going to get worldwide mindshare? Just goes to show all the luddite media knuckleheads aren't in Hollywood...
The source the article cites [1] contains this sentence:
These videos were blocked by YouTube’s Content ID system, not taken down via DMCA notices
This probably means that neither YouTube nor Constantin Films took any active steps to take down the video. It was probably all automatic through content fingerprints.
It works like this: Content providers, e.g. Constantin Films, create fingerprints for their catalogue with a fingerprinting service, e.g. Audible Magic. Sites with user generated content e.g. YouTube check any uploaded content for a matching fingerprint. If anything gets identified as copyrighted content it gets blocked. I work at a video platform, and this is how we deal with copyrighted content.
Usually, this happens during upload, my guess is that YouTube started to use such a service at some point and now cleans their content, which takes some time.
I think the parodies are only collateral damage. One more reason to reform copyright.
http://openvideoalliance.org/2010/04/hitler-downfall-meme-gets-dmcad/?l=en
I would take a guess and suggest that part of the reason Constantin Film issued a take-down is that they think it's making light of Hitler - many Germans I know are very strongly anti-nazi (e.g. a friend of mine who at a Tokyo punk gig would put down the arms of Japanese patrons who performed nazi salutes to a german-themed Japanese band).
My personal opinion is that this is fair use and beneficial to the company - I see several comments from people saying the only reason they watched Downfall is because of the various videos they watched. But that doesn't seem to ring with a company that I presume mainly makes for the domestic German market (and art-house cinema overseas to a lesser degree) and probably doesn't have a good grip of the benefits of allowing limited remixing of original content.
Downfall was an incredibly powerful movie and that meme was wearing the impact off of its best scene. I could see the creators ignoring the fact that it's making the movie more popular and demanding a take-down as a matter of principle.
I think what prevents this from being "parody" is that the thing being copied is not the thing being parodied. A "Downfall" parody video about Star Trek isn't a parody of Downfall, it's a parody of Star Trek, or maybe a parody of Star Trek fans.
Similarly, when Weird Al Yankovic ripped off Nirvana to make fun of Nirvana he didn't need to get permission to do so, but when he ripped off American Pie to make fun of Star Wars Episode 1 he did. (For the record, Weird Al nowadays always gets permission from the original artist anyway.)
A note for those of us who perhaps know "unter" but not "untergang": the official movie title English translation of Der Untergang is Downfall. My G<->E dictionary suggests setting, sinking, fig. ruin.
Leaders are often insulated from reality by people around them, especially if they have a penchant for violent outbursts.
See the 'chair' incident and the movie 'Der Untergang'.
I'm sure Jobs and others in the industry have similar reality distortion fields around them.
But I highly doubt that at the lower levels in the microsoft organization they'd be this myopic, and a bunch of anecdotes here and elsewhere about microsoft employees owning hardware produced by competitors and displaying them openly at work seems to confirm that doubt.
God, not another one of these... How many of these video spoofs do we need?
Downfall was an excellent movie, but seriously, all these videos are getting really repetitive. And I don't think they belong on HN.