I am aware of Doki Doki Literature Club but have never played it, however I have played SMB and several related Mario games. And I think actually tiny ways in which you do make a difference as the protagonist in SMB actually did draw me into that more than say, "My Cousin Rachel".
I am not a plumber, I do not inhabit the mushroom kingdom and AFAIK I am not engaged in rescuing a princess. Nor am I a wealthy young orphan (I was older and poorer than the protagonist decades ago when I first read "My Cousin Rachel") who is infatuated with a woman who may or may not have poisoned another cousin of his. Nevertheless, I am playing Mario. The choice to jump on a Goomba is mine and mine alone, whereas Philip is going to sleep with Rachel even when I think, as I turn the page, that this is an extremely unwise course of action. [Spoilers but, like, she wrote that novel a long time ago, you should have read it, it's pretty good]
I don't so much like video games where I periodically lose control so that the story the creator wanted to tell happens anyway. In a Metal Gear Solid game for example I find it annoying that I know Snake shouldn't pull the lever or whatever but the moment I lose control of him Snake is going to pull that lever. But I see this loss of control as a betrayal of the central idea. If Kojima wanted to make a movie about this idiot who follows orders from people who obviously are lying to him, he can do so - that shouldn't be a video game IMO. On the other hand, when I'm given narrative choices, even if they don't matter to the big picture story, they do matter to me. It is not important that I do not control their ultimate consequences, after all that's not how choices work IRL either.
Not yet haha but even as a place to hang out and casually chat, it would be cool if the character occasionally rendered a cutscene to go along with narratives, or you could optionally enable music and sfx like an audiobook. Maybe the most interesting ones you could export (and distribute for others to experience).
Though I bet the transition from AI text chat to rich multimedia will be like silent films to talkies - where some characters just aren't as interesting with a voiceover or depicted in a video. For some types of characters (written storytellers, etc.) the best interactions might always be text-based.
I felt this with the Final Fantasy 7 Remake, though it's clearly improved from the 1997 version, something felt lost in the transition from the old pre-rendered scenes (drawings) and having to read the dialog in your head, to now having high-quality voiceovers in the best 3D scenes. Yet, if you take a Metal Gear Solid or a Madden - the richer the experience the better.
Ideally: You start out just wanting to go to the tavern and chat with a group of characters, but that interaction became so unexpectedly rich and entertaining you want to capture it, so you can watch it again or share it.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Metal Gear Solid in this thread (although I really enjoy all the indie suggestions).
Each MGS game is essentially an epic interactive movie[^], with individual cutscenes lasting up to an hour.
Granted not everyone likes Kojimas style, but those who do won't regret their time. Best played sequentially from MGS2.
[^] MGS5 is a notable exception as an open-world style game and an abrubt ending, ultimately leading to Kojima leaving Konami. Still good fun and brings some of the stories from earlier games together.
The parallel you've drawn with the movie industry is super relevant, I hadn't thought about it that way. It actually makes more sense for them to milk whatever is popular to maximise profit.
It's a shame that these companies are becoming risk averse with regards to creativity in fear of not meeting shareholder targets though ...
As for the conspiracy part, I think I got it from Kojima in one of his Metal Gear Solid games (was either 2 or 4). The way it was presented was very compelling, I should play it again :)
Porn is inevitable though even with the laws... I think the parent is referring to people making games and writing stories based on popular franchises.
Look at game companies stopping fan made games. I remember hearing about a fan remake of PS1 Metal Gear Solid. Was gathering huge fan far and had kojima's blessing, but the studio shut it down.
"When I said party I meant parry. Here's a famous video showing the parry system at work, as you can see it has nothing to do with wrestling games."
That was an awesome vid. The parry system did change the fighting game dynamic a lot. Wrestling games, including WCW vs World, had counter moves for various strikes and grapples. I don't recall them making opponent go backward to deliver arbitrary, normal move. So, SF3's parry's are either original or an enhancement on wrestling counters. Definitely innovative for that kind of audience.
"Also, regarding 8-way run coming from wrestling games, they aren't the same mechanic. In early wrestling games you need to press a run button to run, and when you do your potential moveset changes. Furthermore, your run is not relative to the other player but rather relative to the ring. This all gives it a completely different feel."
That is true. It's why I added Ehrgeiz whose movement makes Soulcalibur look really limited. Maybe I'm misremembering it, though. Look at link below. Scroll past character descriptions to section IV: "basic moves and fighting techniques."
You'll see it had full, 8-way, arbitrary movement with 360 degree attack angles possible. Also crouching behind stuff in level, jumping on level, weapons, rolling, ground attacks, counters, tech hits, and instant 180's. It lacked the smooth flow and ease of use of Soulcalibur as players had to, a la Tekken, face the opponent's attack and direction precisely to counter it. So, you felt mastery when gameplay looked like a Soul game.
"Lastly, Soul Calibur is not in the same lineage as Tekken. As I've already said, Soul Calibur was the sequel to Soul Edge. It's a completely different game series."
The old making of soulcalibur writeup said the Tekken 2 team helped make it. It's why I thought it was a sequel to Tekken at first. The SC and TK2 team worked together on it. Presumably reused techniques in codebase from TK2 since they clearly weren't doing the artwork. That's speculation but SC was a team effort that included TK2 team. It's a joint lineage even if separate mechanics and artwork. Don't know why it bothers you as it's more like a good FOSS partly forks or works with another good FOSS to create a perfect-rated FOSS. I plan to replay it in future just cuz you had me look it up.
"Before I answer that question, please answer this, do you know of any games that were game-changing or way ahead of their time on PlayStation 1?"
Metal Gear Solid. Whole volumes written about playing in a movie, enemies' reactions to things, clever ploys by designers, stealth aspect... whole package. Landmark work that only a few tried (and failed) to copy.
WCWvsWorld or WCWvsNWO. Came out same year with similar mechanics including 8-way movement (ring-based as you said), grappling system, counter moves, team matches, weapons from crowd, and so on. NWO probably the innovator here. No Mercy and others copied it. WWF Smackdown would later take 3D wrestling back to fast-moving, high-flying, crazy roots in arcade games. Then, PSX vs N64 debates re their various games were more accurately New PSX vs Old PSX styles but N64 people pled ignorance of WCWvNWO or WCWvW. ;)
Twisted Metal. There's racing games. There's destruction games. There's 3D world games. This combined all three into what I guess was a new genre as people acted like they never saw it before.
Final Fantasy VII. I never played others before it on console so can't say anything to mechanics. Yet, combo of deep story, character development, and custom, classical score matched to events in game made a powerful impression I had never encountered in another game. That combo seems unique, esp leveraging classical for emotional impact. So, it's a maybe but I'm not certain.
Resident Evil. Characters, interesting plot, puzzles, unusual game mechanics, and scary kills pioneered survival horror genre in consoles.
Sports. I recall Playstation had some of first, sports games like NBA that mimicked life-like stuff instead of arcade stuff. I'm not sure if it was first on this but it was first I saw that reminded me of real-life.
Alright. There's a start. Feel free to accept or shoot them down with counterexamples.
You're right, but you don't go far enough. Not only should we mostly give up games, but also film, TV, fictional books, travelling for pleasure, non-procreative sex. All they do is hurt society, cause pollution and produce nothing. Hell, why are you wasting time on a family? Think of all the Ruby books you could have read.
Except, in addition to being pleasurable, media shapes our society and culture. That we do more than just working to survive is perhaps one of humanity's defining features, and we should be embracing it. Video games are similar to books or film, in that they have dramatically influenced many of our minds and lives. That's why we get upset when publishers see our obsession and game merely as something to exploit for profit, then throw away, rather than as something that should be preserved as part of society's collective knowledge. Even if the DRM probably won't directly cause us any problems ever, it makes us uncomfortable. I noticed when playing the latest release of Metal Gear Solid, how significant the series has been to me.
When I played MG/MGS1, I was young - and, among other games, shared controller gameplay was a bonding experience between me and my friends. These friends are still my strongest, so no doubt it helped cement the friendship. MGS2 was when I was about 10, and starting to think somewhat philosophically. The ideas about AI and censorship, trans-humanism, robotics and nanotechnology significantly changed me and perhaps shaped my beliefs and future (in combination with films like The Matrix which I watched at the same time). MGS3, I played with my girlfriend when we first met - and even now we still talk about it, and have played it a few times since. I played MGS4 relatively recently, now moved out, living with girlfriend and working. That video game series, however, has been there, influencing my life in various ways from the sidelines - and that's just one video game out of hundreds I've played over the years. I remember when playing Sega Megadrive games when I was very young, trying to work out how they were made. It perhaps is when I started to get interested in programming.
Sure, you shouldn't be playing them all day every day - but that's just the age old problem of procrastination, living a balanced life and work before play. If you go too far down this path of maximum productivity, you start to burn out. Finding the play/work balance is hard, because on the one side is extreme sloth, and on the other is a path that, I believe, ends up making you a kind of solipsist/nihilist burnout.
Hacker Cinema
9 comments on Hacker News
Ultimately I do agree there's a spectrum.
I am aware of Doki Doki Literature Club but have never played it, however I have played SMB and several related Mario games. And I think actually tiny ways in which you do make a difference as the protagonist in SMB actually did draw me into that more than say, "My Cousin Rachel".
I am not a plumber, I do not inhabit the mushroom kingdom and AFAIK I am not engaged in rescuing a princess. Nor am I a wealthy young orphan (I was older and poorer than the protagonist decades ago when I first read "My Cousin Rachel") who is infatuated with a woman who may or may not have poisoned another cousin of his. Nevertheless, I am playing Mario. The choice to jump on a Goomba is mine and mine alone, whereas Philip is going to sleep with Rachel even when I think, as I turn the page, that this is an extremely unwise course of action. [Spoilers but, like, she wrote that novel a long time ago, you should have read it, it's pretty good]
I don't so much like video games where I periodically lose control so that the story the creator wanted to tell happens anyway. In a Metal Gear Solid game for example I find it annoying that I know Snake shouldn't pull the lever or whatever but the moment I lose control of him Snake is going to pull that lever. But I see this loss of control as a betrayal of the central idea. If Kojima wanted to make a movie about this idiot who follows orders from people who obviously are lying to him, he can do so - that shouldn't be a video game IMO. On the other hand, when I'm given narrative choices, even if they don't matter to the big picture story, they do matter to me. It is not important that I do not control their ultimate consequences, after all that's not how choices work IRL either.
Not yet haha but even as a place to hang out and casually chat, it would be cool if the character occasionally rendered a cutscene to go along with narratives, or you could optionally enable music and sfx like an audiobook. Maybe the most interesting ones you could export (and distribute for others to experience).
Though I bet the transition from AI text chat to rich multimedia will be like silent films to talkies - where some characters just aren't as interesting with a voiceover or depicted in a video. For some types of characters (written storytellers, etc.) the best interactions might always be text-based.
I felt this with the Final Fantasy 7 Remake, though it's clearly improved from the 1997 version, something felt lost in the transition from the old pre-rendered scenes (drawings) and having to read the dialog in your head, to now having high-quality voiceovers in the best 3D scenes. Yet, if you take a Metal Gear Solid or a Madden - the richer the experience the better.
Ideally: You start out just wanting to go to the tavern and chat with a group of characters, but that interaction became so unexpectedly rich and entertaining you want to capture it, so you can watch it again or share it.
Not sure if voice acting is the problem because the first Metal Gear Solid on PS1 is still one of the best video game and movie experience for me.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Metal Gear Solid in this thread (although I really enjoy all the indie suggestions).
Each MGS game is essentially an epic interactive movie[^], with individual cutscenes lasting up to an hour.
Granted not everyone likes Kojimas style, but those who do won't regret their time. Best played sequentially from MGS2.
[^] MGS5 is a notable exception as an open-world style game and an abrubt ending, ultimately leading to Kojima leaving Konami. Still good fun and brings some of the stories from earlier games together.
The parallel you've drawn with the movie industry is super relevant, I hadn't thought about it that way. It actually makes more sense for them to milk whatever is popular to maximise profit.
It's a shame that these companies are becoming risk averse with regards to creativity in fear of not meeting shareholder targets though ...
As for the conspiracy part, I think I got it from Kojima in one of his Metal Gear Solid games (was either 2 or 4). The way it was presented was very compelling, I should play it again :)
Porn is inevitable though even with the laws... I think the parent is referring to people making games and writing stories based on popular franchises.
Look at game companies stopping fan made games. I remember hearing about a fan remake of PS1 Metal Gear Solid. Was gathering huge fan far and had kojima's blessing, but the studio shut it down.
https://gameranx.com/features/id/159002/article/10-incredible-fan-games-that-were-legally-taken-down/
A success story for one fan project though was Sonic Mania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_Mania
I have also seen theories for movies on r/writingprompts that blow actual sequels out of the water.
"When I said party I meant parry. Here's a famous video showing the parry system at work, as you can see it has nothing to do with wrestling games."
That was an awesome vid. The parry system did change the fighting game dynamic a lot. Wrestling games, including WCW vs World, had counter moves for various strikes and grapples. I don't recall them making opponent go backward to deliver arbitrary, normal move. So, SF3's parry's are either original or an enhancement on wrestling counters. Definitely innovative for that kind of audience.
"Also, regarding 8-way run coming from wrestling games, they aren't the same mechanic. In early wrestling games you need to press a run button to run, and when you do your potential moveset changes. Furthermore, your run is not relative to the other player but rather relative to the ring. This all gives it a completely different feel."
That is true. It's why I added Ehrgeiz whose movement makes Soulcalibur look really limited. Maybe I'm misremembering it, though. Look at link below. Scroll past character descriptions to section IV: "basic moves and fighting techniques."
http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/197216-ehrgeiz/faqs/4749
You'll see it had full, 8-way, arbitrary movement with 360 degree attack angles possible. Also crouching behind stuff in level, jumping on level, weapons, rolling, ground attacks, counters, tech hits, and instant 180's. It lacked the smooth flow and ease of use of Soulcalibur as players had to, a la Tekken, face the opponent's attack and direction precisely to counter it. So, you felt mastery when gameplay looked like a Soul game.
"Lastly, Soul Calibur is not in the same lineage as Tekken. As I've already said, Soul Calibur was the sequel to Soul Edge. It's a completely different game series."
The old making of soulcalibur writeup said the Tekken 2 team helped make it. It's why I thought it was a sequel to Tekken at first. The SC and TK2 team worked together on it. Presumably reused techniques in codebase from TK2 since they clearly weren't doing the artwork. That's speculation but SC was a team effort that included TK2 team. It's a joint lineage even if separate mechanics and artwork. Don't know why it bothers you as it's more like a good FOSS partly forks or works with another good FOSS to create a perfect-rated FOSS. I plan to replay it in future just cuz you had me look it up.
"Before I answer that question, please answer this, do you know of any games that were game-changing or way ahead of their time on PlayStation 1?"
Metal Gear Solid. Whole volumes written about playing in a movie, enemies' reactions to things, clever ploys by designers, stealth aspect... whole package. Landmark work that only a few tried (and failed) to copy.
WCWvsWorld or WCWvsNWO. Came out same year with similar mechanics including 8-way movement (ring-based as you said), grappling system, counter moves, team matches, weapons from crowd, and so on. NWO probably the innovator here. No Mercy and others copied it. WWF Smackdown would later take 3D wrestling back to fast-moving, high-flying, crazy roots in arcade games. Then, PSX vs N64 debates re their various games were more accurately New PSX vs Old PSX styles but N64 people pled ignorance of WCWvNWO or WCWvW. ;)
Twisted Metal. There's racing games. There's destruction games. There's 3D world games. This combined all three into what I guess was a new genre as people acted like they never saw it before.
Final Fantasy VII. I never played others before it on console so can't say anything to mechanics. Yet, combo of deep story, character development, and custom, classical score matched to events in game made a powerful impression I had never encountered in another game. That combo seems unique, esp leveraging classical for emotional impact. So, it's a maybe but I'm not certain.
Resident Evil. Characters, interesting plot, puzzles, unusual game mechanics, and scary kills pioneered survival horror genre in consoles.
Sports. I recall Playstation had some of first, sports games like NBA that mimicked life-like stuff instead of arcade stuff. I'm not sure if it was first on this but it was first I saw that reminded me of real-life.
Alright. There's a start. Feel free to accept or shoot them down with counterexamples.
Shame they didn't mention Metal Gear Solid (PSX, 1999) initial cutscene, with the titles on-screen as if you were in a movie!
Kojima's a genius
You're right, but you don't go far enough. Not only should we mostly give up games, but also film, TV, fictional books, travelling for pleasure, non-procreative sex. All they do is hurt society, cause pollution and produce nothing. Hell, why are you wasting time on a family? Think of all the Ruby books you could have read.
Except, in addition to being pleasurable, media shapes our society and culture. That we do more than just working to survive is perhaps one of humanity's defining features, and we should be embracing it. Video games are similar to books or film, in that they have dramatically influenced many of our minds and lives. That's why we get upset when publishers see our obsession and game merely as something to exploit for profit, then throw away, rather than as something that should be preserved as part of society's collective knowledge. Even if the DRM probably won't directly cause us any problems ever, it makes us uncomfortable. I noticed when playing the latest release of Metal Gear Solid, how significant the series has been to me.
When I played MG/MGS1, I was young - and, among other games, shared controller gameplay was a bonding experience between me and my friends. These friends are still my strongest, so no doubt it helped cement the friendship. MGS2 was when I was about 10, and starting to think somewhat philosophically. The ideas about AI and censorship, trans-humanism, robotics and nanotechnology significantly changed me and perhaps shaped my beliefs and future (in combination with films like The Matrix which I watched at the same time). MGS3, I played with my girlfriend when we first met - and even now we still talk about it, and have played it a few times since. I played MGS4 relatively recently, now moved out, living with girlfriend and working. That video game series, however, has been there, influencing my life in various ways from the sidelines - and that's just one video game out of hundreds I've played over the years. I remember when playing Sega Megadrive games when I was very young, trying to work out how they were made. It perhaps is when I started to get interested in programming.
Sure, you shouldn't be playing them all day every day - but that's just the age old problem of procrastination, living a balanced life and work before play. If you go too far down this path of maximum productivity, you start to burn out. Finding the play/work balance is hard, because on the one side is extreme sloth, and on the other is a path that, I believe, ends up making you a kind of solipsist/nihilist burnout.