Hacker Cinema
The Devil We Know
2018 · Film · documentary · 88 min
Directed by Stephanie Soechtig
Unraveling one of the biggest environmental scandals of our time, a group of citizens in West Virginia take on a powerful corporation after they discover it has knowingly been dumping a toxic chemical — now found in the blood of 99.7% of Americans — into the local drinking water supply.
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28 comments on Hacker News
+1
Monarchs are so amazing. I recall in the early 1980s in Lake Tahoe, they would cover entire trees during their migrations. They are the most amazing evolutionary creatures migrating 2,000+ miles over multiple generations, whereby every 3rd? gen on the migration is the Super Generation that has all the 'Valkeryie' Genes that transmit the genetic knowledge forth...
Monsanto and pavement killed the Monarch.
Milkweed is fundamental to the eco system, and (this is IMO) due to its very fluidic and milky nectar that was consumed by many, it was an easy vector for Glyphosate which is literally feeding Krokodile (russian battery-acid-heroin) to Planet earth. - but being the Monarchs Sole food....
We are doomed to the petrochem blight (its not about "electrical power" -- its about forever chemicals and extinct entire food chains.
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There is a great documentary on Teflon called "The Devil We Know" - regarding teflon forever chemicals in all of us. I was milling about in the garage and I needed some tape for the hose I was fixing - an I grabbed a roll of teflon tape for the threading -- then it hit me.
My dad owned the Timberland Water Company in Tahoe. growing up he was plumbing here and plumbing there... every where a plumber plumbed the teflon tape was there too...
Also, growing up in Tahoe - we were big skiiers - and to eschew the snow we would spray ScotchGuard all over our clothes. ScotchGuard is Liquid Teflon Aerosol Spray. Yum and we would spray ourselves down in that while wearing our snow gear.
More horrifying watch the actual true documentary - The Devil We Know (2018)
That really feels like a bad-faith and misinformed comparison.
Can you please at least do a very basic amount of research before you take sides on this? Perhaps watch a documentary (e.g. the devil we know) or read at least 1 wikipedia article -- it was clear from the outset that workers at these factories were giving birth to children with birth-defects for example. [1]
These companies had engineers who were actively concerned about its health effects, circulating internal memos to that effect [1], but just because there wasn't a finalized published study are able to claim "well.... it's not proooooven technically for 100% sure to be bad for you in small doses..."
Of course small doses of anything can take a decade to be proven harmful to newborn children. These are now being linked to ADHD, that's something that takes years of very intentional research to find (because how old does a kid have to be to get that diagnosis).
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2023/05/425451/makers-pfas-forever-chemicals-covered-dangers
You have.
Watch this disturbing documentary on teflon
"the devil we know"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJFbsWX4MJM
Watch the documentary The Devil We Know about TEFLON and DUPONT/DOW.
Its disturbing to say the least.
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Here is my own personal theory based on observations through travelling a lot in South East Asia ;
There are a lot of pesticides and fertilizers that are over-used in rural famring areas of the china, philippines, malasia, thailand, laos, myanmar etc...
These chemicals "turn the frogs gay" - while seen as a 'conspiracy' trope - the fact is that the endocrine systems of mammals amphibians and (perhaps) reptiles are impacted heavily due to these chemicals.
The reason why we see a f-ton of "lady-boys" in places like thailand, philippines and other rural asian communities where rice is the staple of not only the diet - but a large part of the economy (the philippines has a national rice management department as they state that its the right of every family to have rice on the table (source, my ex-brother-in-law worked for this department)... we see that in the rice paddies they advertise which pesticides/fertilizers they are using, and they are coaxed into over-use of the chemicals...
These leech into the aqua-sphere and it affects the endocrine systems of the pregnant, young and developing people...
It results in a switch from high testosterone to higher estrogenic development, which results in more femininely expression in males...
Exactly!
I dont think I have had a 'soda' in at least 15 years.
I havent been able to avoid plastic in my life - but I try.
For example, pretty much every spoon in my drawer is Bamboo.
I have a 'hippy' friend, and he has nearly zero plastic in his kitchen - and he exclusively eats with wooden utensils, stoneware or wooden bowls.
I think that ALL single-use-plastics should be replaced by corn-plant-based materials.
Single use plastic should be taken out as aggressively as the nazis! :-)
Its so bad for everything.
We should also be burning down DOW Chemical and the major plastic manufacturers for their lack of any accountability, responsibility.
Look at the documentary "the devil we know" about Teflon.
Great documentary called “the devil we know” about the proliferation of perflorinated chemicals invented by 3m and sold to DuPont and chemical companies overseas.
Definitely emotional, but overall right I think. A good place to start is the documentary "The devil we know". I think you'll come to the conclusion that what has happened here has been inexcusable.
I'm also from Appalachia. But just across the river in WV.
>from what I’ve heard but not completely personally confirmed, it’s already contaminating downstream into the Ohio river.
As someone who grew up in the town both The Devil We Know (Documentary on Netflix) and Dark Waters (loosely based on real events) are about - and the bizarre fillings to prove it - when it was happening to the people living there, this is sadly normal.
>But. I don’t know what to say. Other than… these people have been voting against their best interests. Their entire damn lives.
This is such a patronizing thing to say. Especially given this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34635291
>How can you possibly have any wake-up call for a populace so deep into hatred & corporate bootlicking.
The other side would accuse their opponents of...exactly the same things. The boots are just Big Tech flavored. And the hatred is based on ignorance, as it usually is.
>They got what was coming to them. I don’t know how many this catastrophe will wake up to the fact they’ve been swindled all this time, that the political party they’ve sworn their lives to have already sold their souls for pennies on the dollar, so long ago.
Which political party is that? The recent strikebreaking was led by Biden, which would make the party you're talking about the Democrats:
>So on Friday morning, after three years of failed negotiations, President Biden instead signed into law a measure that imposes the contract agreement brokered by his administration back in September
https://www.npr.org/2022/12/02/1140265413/rail-workers-biden-unions-freight-railroads-averted-strike
>But, again. I do not know what to say. For decades, so many of these people have voted for those that pass laws to make corporations not even slightly accountable & strike down reforms aiming to regulate these industries - regulate so that they’re forced to take up safety measures so shit like this cannot happen
Again, the recent strikebreaking wasn't the party you're obviously implying.
>The damage is done, and they will die before they ever see a better community - politicians that care for their well being.
Outside of Bernie, and maybe the Pauls, I'm not sure those exist.
>They got what was coming to them. I don’t know how many this catastrophe will wake up to the fact they’ve been swindled all this time, that the political party they’ve sworn their lives to have already sold their souls for pennies on the dollar, so long ago.
And you accuse them of hatred? You should re-read what you've written when you've sobered up, methinks.
>Appalachia is such an unfortunate place - so beautiful, but abandoned by modern first world society. (okay, northern ohio is technically slightly out of Appalachia proper - GOMD)
Appalachia goes all the way up into NY state, homie. Much of Ohio along the eponymous river is just Appalachia with a big river in it. And the mountains are older than Saturn's rings(!).
>that the politicians they’ve been voting for as long as they’ve been able have sold out their entire livelihoods for the most meager amounts of $USD
So we've correctly identified the problem as politicians that don't serve their constituents interests. What do we do about it? I suggest uncapping the number of members of the House. Let's see a country where people actually know their Congrescritter. Like it was supposed to be.
There's also a documentary on netflix about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_We_Know
I grew up in the area during the worst of the dumping. It destroyed basically all of my baby teeth and created cavities in a couple of adult teeth that no dentist has ever seen before. None of us at the time understood why it was happening. I had so many teeth basically just crumble that I had steel caps on one with a spacer where another was missing. Both my parents assumed it was something I was doing/poor care when I was at the other one's house. Turns out it was the goddamn water supply.
My stepdad actually worked at the plant long enough to retire from there too. I think he had mesothelioma from asbestos, or god knows what from the plant.
A lot of people in the area were heavily contaminated: https://www.uc.edu/news/articles/legacy/healthnews/2017/05/high-levels-of-pfoa-found-in-mid-ohio-river-valley-residents-1991-to-2013.html
>Watch this documentary, "The Devil We Know" (About the history and toxicity of teflon.
Sorry, but I'm not going to watch a 95 minute documentary on a whim. Based on the wikipedia summary, it doesn't seem to contradict what I said, specifically
>regarding allegations of health hazards from perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA, also known as C8), a key ingredient used in manufacturing Teflon
I specifically mentioned in my last comment that they were "poisonous during manufacturing ".
>>*Also, claiming that they "seem to be poisonous" without any qualifiers is a little misleading. To my knowledge they're only poisonous during manufacturing (ie. the precursor chemicals) and when they get too hot.*
Watch this documentary, "The Devil We Know" (About the history and toxicity of teflon.
tl;dw - its a cancer causing birth defect, testosterone/endocrine system atomic bmb and there isnt a single person alive today who can be found (according to the doc) who does not have measurable amounts of teflon in their blood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_We_Know
Just throwing out another related film: The Devil We Know (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_We_Know)
Well. It’s a guardian opinion piece. While I often find guardian language stilted, I find that there is value in reading it.
DuPont is one of the big daddies of the chemical industry. The few who control the poisons of the world also control our seeds.
Having said that, learning about the author is also important to understand the motivation :
[..] Rob Bilott is a partner at the law firm of Taft Stettinius & Hollister, LLP and author of Exposure: Poisoned Water, Corporate Greed, and One Lawyer’s Twenty-Year Battle Against DuPont.
His book was the story behind the film, Dark Waters and the documentary, The Devil We Know.
Rob is also a 2017 recipient of the 2017 Right Livelihood Award, also known as the “Alternative Nobel Prize,” for his work on Forever Chemicals.
On Thursday, Rob Bilott is participating in an online discussion on the need to regulate PFAS titled Dark Waters no more! Is it time for a global agreement on toxic chemicals?[..]
I used to really like Teflon, but then I watched a lil documentary on the problems that come from manufacturing the coating. DuPont and 3M poisoned nearly the whole planet. “The Devil We Know” is the title. They just swept the problems under the rug, switched to different chemicals when shit hit the fan, but those chemicals carry the same dangers. It ain’t just the birds in the house that take a hit. It’s in you forever.
For everyone concerned about the damage this crap is doing to the environment and humans should watch "The Devil We Know"[1]. This film covers a time frame, starting in the 50's up to the current day.
[1] https://youtu.be/gwZSXdjAqSk
If this is a topic that concerns you, I recommend you should watch the documentary "The Devil We Know"[0] -- About DuPont's Teflon production and how its literally in the bloodstreams of all.
I recall growing up in Tahoe, we would spray the heck out of all our winter wear with Scotch Guard (Teflon) and even breath in its fumes...
[0] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7689910/
[1] https://www.netflix.com/search?q=the%20devil%20we%20know&jbv=80997719&jbp=0&jbr=0
[2] https://www.amazon.com/Devil-We-Know-Bucky-Bailey/dp/B07H7XJTX3/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=the+devil+we+know&qid=1579722179&s=instant-video&sr=1-1
See also the documentary The Devil We Know
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_We_Know
The documentary is The Devil We Know. It is riveting and heartbreaking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_We_Know
Sounds like PFAS (a byproduct from teflon production). Researchers struggle to find any humans who don't have it in their bloodstream, even in remote areas. It causes birth defects.
Fun Fact: the "compostable" paper bowls offered by many fast casual restaurants like Chipotle contain this chemical, and will leech into the soil if you try to compost them.
"The Devil We Know" is a pretty unnerving documentary on this subject.
DuPont (the chemical company) has been dumping PFOA/C8 chemicals into various waterways, causing cancer and birth defects[0] across hundreds of towns and cities in various parts of the US for decades[1], and when the EPA told them to stop and fined them something like $17M (for a company that makes tens of billions of dollars a year), they promptly switched to a different chemical process to produce Teflon that resulted in identical health issues[2].
Did any of their executives see any criminal charges? Of course not.
The Devil we Know is a great documentary, by the way.
[0]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorooctanoic_acid#Health_concerns
[1]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DuPont#Perfluorooctanoic_acid_(PFOA;_C8)
[2]:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GenX
I'd be careful with the assumption that just because you're doing fine now, means you will continue to when you're 50+.
Watch this, if you haven't already:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84glf6F3b-Y
"The Devil We Know". It's a documentary about the Ohio river valley polution by 3M and Dupont in the production of Teflon. There are many amazing parts in this documentary but one of the most eye opening, is the fact that Dupont understood the risks of dumping C8 into the water. Yet the continued to do it, because, profits.
Who can say what companies are around you, polluting the ground water? Just be careful with assumptions that its always safe, is all I'm saying. I'm sure people in the Ohio River Valley thought the same.
Blood testing has emerged as a sticking point. Specifically, a growing movement of veterans and others, united in advocacy groups with names like Fountain Valley Clean Water Coalition and Need Our Water, are asking the military test their blood for the chemicals, hoping to bring results to their doctors or use them in lawsuits.
Strange that the article is being so cagey about why this might be the case.
Every human blood sample tested since the 1950s has shown detectable perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA aka C8, a member of the PFAS class of chemicals mentioned in the article). The problem was so bad that DuPont had to search high and low for blood samples that weren't contaminated with PFOA. They did eventually find clean samples - archived from a group of recruits for the Korean War.
A little about the chemistry. Think of most forms of grease as a greasy, long, water-repellant chain of carbon-hydrogen bonds attached to a small water-attractive "polar" head. PFASs replace all of the carbon-hydrogen bonds in the greasy tail with carbon-fluorine bonds. This makes the molecule repel grease (great for non-stick coatings throughout the house). But the carbon-fluroene bond is quite inert, thus the name "forever chemical." There are few environmental mechanisms that can degrade them - either exposed or inside a body.
This article fails to put the problem into proper context - making it sound unique to military bases. That not true. PFOA is a problem at numerous sites. Nobody knows the long-term consequences of releasing this much highly-inert, carcinogenic material into the environment. What is known is that those unfortunate enough to have worked on PFOA production and who received high exposure to it developed horrific problems including cancers.
The Intercept did a massive series on this:
https://theintercept.com/series/the-teflon-toxin/
The Netflix documentary "The Devil We Know" is also worth watching:
https://www.netflix.com/title/80997719
Well, you'll end up with toxic drinking water with this attitude. I don't know what the right solution is, but saying you don't know enough at this point to throw out your teflon pans and avoid certain products and that you don't want to research things is lazy and ignorant.
Citizen's levying large class-actions suits and making documentaries like "The Devil We Know" are perhaps the best tools we have to stop fascist corruption.
Another story about Teflon! Why do these articles always bury the lede? Just say it's Telfon!
There's a great documentary about this that came out last year called, The Devil We Know. The TL;DR is that Dupont (seller of Teflon) and 3M (the inventor) knew early on that Telfon caused birth defects and cancer.
They knew it would poison the water supply and could never be remediated. And they went ahead and sold it, again and again, into thousands of products because Dupont was earning about $1B in profits (on their $23B in revenue) just from Teflon alone.
There's a terrific documentary from last year on this topic (the chemical is Teflon, BTW). It's called The Devil We Know.
You'll be horrified at how both these companies knew about Telfon's danger to people yet released it into the water supply anyway as well as put in it thousands of products.
Watch the Netflix documentary The devil we know for more on PFOA (aka C8) and PFOS. They are widely used in the manufacture of teflon and other nonstick products.
PFOA has made its way into the bloood of almost every human being.
OP here. This is the subject of the excellent 2018 documentary, The Devil We Know.