Hacker Cinema
The Game Changers
2019 · Film · documentary · 88 min
Directed by Louie Psihoyos
From the UFC Octagon in Las Vegas and the anthropology lab at Dartmouth, to a strongman gym in Berlin and the bushlands of Zimbabwe, the world is introduced to elite athletes, special ops soldiers, visionary scientists, cultural icons, and everyday heroes—each on a mission to create a seismic shift in the way we eat and live.
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24 comments on Hacker News
quite off!
You need at least 0.8g / kilo (referring to 0.4g / pound) if you are doing nothing heavy, like walking to the office.
If you do moderate sports, you are hitting 1.0g / kilo immediately.
If you do some more extensive sports, like 3 - 4 days / week in gym, you jumü to 1.2 - 1.4g / kilo.
Bodybuilders are quite above :-))
Regarding the number of chicken breasts - scary for me, Im enough with a half one every second or third day.
There was a great movie about vegan & bodybuilding with known sports people: The Gamechangers - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_Changers
While the over-arc of this message is good (avoid packaged and processed food) I personally don’t like the advice that these are not top tier foods: non-GMO organic whole wheat (i.e., not soaked with pesticides), brown rice, and other pesticide-free whole grains —- all in moderation.
I also don’t like the emphasis on meat protein. Small amounts of meat protein a few times a week are definitely healthy for most people, but organic (not soaked in pesticides) beans, lentils, etc. are almost certainly a healthy way to consume extra protein.
I sense the ugly hand of the meat industry in realfood.gov. I think if more people understood how (especially) chickens and pigs are tortured in meat production, it would help people who are addicted to excess meat cut back on their consumption to just what they need for good health.
EDIT: the documentary movie The Game Changers (2018) is an excellent source of information. The scenes interviewing huge muscular vegetarian NFL football players really put the lie to the ‘must have meat’ addicts. That said, I still think small amounts of meat protein are very healthy for most people.
"Game Changers" is a terrible place to plant your fact-flag. Like all documentaries of its type, there is no balanced fact-checking, questionable "experts" basing their opinions on small inconclusive studies, etc, etc.
Grew up in a religious house too. Acceptance of what is and refraining from dividing everything in good or bad, ie letting go of a learned (imposed?) judgemental/religious attitude, was key for me.
Turned vegan too, but not for ethical reasons. Saw the movie Game Changers and immediately switched. I want to live a long healthy life.
I was was happy to discover that evolutionary biologists have similar ideas. I think of myself and other humans as naked apes with a mind which is on the one hand extremely weak (If the elephant wants someting else, the rider is powerless) but on the other hand able to believe in ideas which are detrimental to its' own health. I think the meaning of life is the same for humans, bacteria and all other living beings: survive and procreate, nothing more. For many minds this does not seem to be enough, for me it is.
Thanks for commenting again... I appreciate it's not easy to keep up the debate once a post dropped off the HN front page.
My comments:
> Yes actually; it was a specifically Christian endeavor
I wasn't aware of that. But I'm talking about how it is today. Most humans, religious or not, agree that slavery is wrong. Same with people choosing to adopt a vegan mindset.
It's wrong to oppress and exploit billions of sentient beings every year, just so we can enjoy a burger, when it's not necessary anymore for our survival. Nothing religious or cult like about that. Just being principled and saying no to cruelty and destruction. Simple as that.
> I just think about it for 5 minutes; most of those UN reports are manifest nonsense
It's not just the UN. The other link I shared was a 5 year Oxford Uni study. Is that nonsense too?
There are countless of other academic studies about the damage our current large scale animal agriculture causes. It's not just GHGs. It's pollution and habitat loss which causes biodiversity loss.
Damian Mander, ex special forces guy who now uses his skills to protect endangered animals, said it best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUMGBwgGYWw&t=100s
> That said, I think it's possible to meet net meat demand using acceptable (to me) farming practices.
Any more details on this? With what would we replace factory farming, which is already highly optimized to get the most out of the land and animals (hence why animal welfare is so low or non existent).
> There is almost no group of people in the world I trust lest than dietary "medical experts", and quite frankly people who take them seriously are gullible.
I wasn't clear on this one. These are not just some dieticians. PCRM - the Physicians Committee combines the clout and expertise of more than 17,000 physicians.
Again, have a look at https://www.pcrm.org/good-nutrition/plant-based-diets/nutrition-faq
> why do 90+% of vegans look like crap?
There are millions of people out there who don't eat meat or don't consume any animals products. I doubt you've met them all.
Again, vegan doesn't necessarily mean healthy. You have to make an effort to eat healthily. Likewise eating meat doesn't mean you're automatically eating healthily.
> Why would I bother watching that piece of garbage?
Thanks for sharing the biolayne article. I've not come across that one yet. He claims Gamechangers was biased, probably to an extend, and yet he is very biased and even funded by the egg industry[1].
But the most important point is that he agrees that you can function at an elite athletic level on a plant-based diet[0]. That was my whole point. Most of us are not elite athletes, so if they can do it, it should be even easier for folks not operating at that physical level. A lot of our food is already fortified with B12 or vitamin D, so you don't really have to do anything special. So many great meat free and nutritious recipes out there. I'm not bald (btw, a plant based diet doesn't cause someone to be bald) or scrawny and my doc said my blood work looks excellent and I should continue with whatever I'm doing.
My thought process goes as follows:
- We know that our current meat addiction is not sustainable and it can't be our main source of protein to feed the world.
- We know animals suffer immense cruelty when they are being factory farmed or when they are being processed in slaughter houses.
- We know the working conditions are horrendous in these slaughterhouses. Why would we want other fellow humans to go through that? I'd rather chop up vegetables all than killing and gutting animals all day. Which one would you choose?
- We know we can survive and thrive without having to kill animals and consume their flesh.
The most important step is that people say no to factory farming and vote with their wallet. This will force the market to come up with more sustainable alternatives, which is already happening.
So given this choice, why wouldn't we go with the option that causes the least harm on multiple levels?
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[0] "I’m not saying you can’t be an elite athlete and be vegan, you certainly can, but you can also be an elite athlete and NOT be vegan [...]"
[1] In summary, Layne throws out accusations of cherry picking and bias, and yet exhibits unbelievable bias and cherry picking. His critique of the movie is more a critique of veganism. I really don’t think he watched the whole movie, and I am certain most of the on line critics have not seen a single minute.
The movie was designed to show that you can get enough protein and be successful as a vegan athlete, even at a very high level of competition.
From: http://proteinaholic.com/response-to-layne-nortons-review-of-the-game-changers/
> Most humans not practicing slavery for example, is that also being religious?
Yes actually; it was a specifically Christian endeavor to globally eliminate slavery. Modern political Veganism is also Christian in origin, although it's been adopted as a religious crusade by Western State Secularists as well (which I suspect you are from what you've said so far).
> Can you provide your sources
I just think about it for 5 minutes; most of those UN reports are manifest nonsense. E.g. the feat mongering about cow farts. Here are two key terms for why I don't care about cow farts: bison, and fungal decomposition.
> Have you actually watched the documentary?
Why would I bother watching that piece of garbage? I've read the synopsis, and I see why it's total bullshit. https://www.biolayne.com/articles/research/the-game-changers-review-a-scientific-analysis/
> the creator of the documentary, ex MMA fighter, actually said his performance went up
Wow! They found a who guy claims his performance went up! Amazing!
For every person who claims they're doing better on veganism (questionably, in most cases) there are dozens who match the stereotype.
> We are not carnivores.
I don't know about you, but my evolutionary ancestors (early Northern Europeans) were carnivores for at least 30-40% of the year. This is obvious if you think about it for 5 minutes. They almost certainly were still heavily meat-oriented most of the rest of the year.
> then at least hunt or raise and kill your own
I have done this in the past, and would recommend it, but as you say it's not scalable. That said, I think it's possible to meet net meat demand using acceptable (to me) farming practices.
> You can be healthy on a plant-based diet. Check this resource by medical experts:
There is almost no group of people in the world I trust lest than dietary "medical experts", and quite frankly people who take them seriously are gullible.
In order for me to seriously consider the idea that veganism might be healthy, you need to explain something to me: why do 90+% of vegans look like crap? I'm not trying to be mean here; I am just completely unwilling to adopt a diet which will make me weak, androgen deficient, and emaciated, which seems to describe almost every vegan I know.
> The Game Changers was manifestly stupid propaganda. If you fell for it, this is a really bad sign wrt your ability to filter out dietary-pseudoscientific nonsense.
How is watching olympic athletes, proving they are getting even better, propaganda?
I feel like you didn't even watch the film.
> The film The Game Changers has plenty of examples of thriving humans on a vegan diet… You are just showing a bias.
I am showing a bias and the silly vegan propaganda movie isn’t? OK.
Btw, if you want some examples of veganism not working as advertised, look up the ongoing “vegans: the epitome of malnourishment” series on YouTube. It tracks various vegan influencers throughout the years.
The film The Game Changers has plenty of examples of thriving humans on a vegan diet, it is the opposite of what you claim.
You are just showing a bias.
>It's bad all around Even experts don't have a consensus on this... If your source is the game changers documentary on Netflix, it may seem like this.
That documentary is rife with inaccuracies as well. It's a consequence of having a bunch of wealthy Hollywood folks convert to veganism, and then jump on board with pushing a diet as the be-all/end-all.
It's one thing to claim (accurately) that a good, careful vegan diet is healthy for a person and very healthy for the planet. It's a whole different ballgame to claim that a healthy vegan diet is nutritionally superior to any and all diets that include any form of animal products, which is essentially what Game Changers claims.
There was a rather entertaining and informative debate about Game Changers between a bad-ass vegan MMA fighter and another nutritional expert on Joe Rogan's podcast, and one thing they both end up acknowledging is that Game Changers is a propaganda film disguised as a documentary.
Just to throw my own vegan diet anecdote onto the growing pile:
Last year I went on a pure vegan diet for about 6 months (after watching the Netflix documentary "Game Changers").
Everything was going well (or so I thought) right up until I woke up one day with abdominal pain.
Over the course of an hour, it went from feeling like it could be gas or constipation to being the worst pain I'd ever felt. I was literally writhing on the ground while dry retching from the pain. I've never experienced anything else like it before.
Turns out, I had kidney stones.
One of the primary causes of kidney stones is too much oxalates in your diet. Guess what oxalates are found in? Practically every vegetable I had been eating for months.
There is an advocacy* movie called The Game Changers which highlights several vegan athletes and makes the case that their plant-based diet contributes to their success. https://gamechangersmovie.com/
* I would not consider it a documentary as it has a clear agenda, but I found it interesting nonetheless.
Just as the documentary dramatized things, that rebuttal does the same. Taking small points in the movie, ie, the roman gladiator thing, and hype it up as if the movie made some grandiose claim about gladiators being the pinnacle of achievement.
The main argument that game changers proposes is a rebuttal to a long history of meat eaters and the meat industry claiming you need meat and dairy to be an athlete. That's false, and that's what the movie shows. There's also lots of benefits to eating a vegan diet and it showcases that as well.
The reason there aren't a lot of studies showcasing people who only eat grass fed beef that they killed themselves with cows they love is there simply isn't enough people doing that. Meat consumption leans drastically towards processed meats or bulk beef and chicken output. So naturally that's what these studies are targeting.
I believe you can make most diets healthy when adhering to rules of freshness, nutrient density, and a wide array of nutrients.
Just like how you can have an awful diet as a meat eater, you can have a awful diet as a vegan. It's not hard, just have white pasta with no vegetables and you have a carb dense vegan meal.
We don't need everyone to go vegan, but I think society would be better off if almost everyone (in America at least) believe they needed meat in the meal to feel full. We have an obsession with meat, but not in how it actually arrived to our plate, but in a don't ask don't tell philosophy. The general advice of "eat a lot of everything, mostly plants" is a good one and doesn't exclude meat and dairy, but it probably means to reduce your consumption. If you're someone who gets milk from your local farmer who also raises cows they have named and care for then you're probably fine, otherwise, don't think vegans are just crazy idiots, they may have a point.
That film was one big inaccurate extrapolation after another.
One of the authors of a cited study did a rebuttal here - https://ketogenic.com/debunking-the-game-changers/
> What if don't drink, don't smoke, do regular exercise, not obese... and eat lots of high quality meat? I haven't seen anything that comes close to showing that this would be unhealthy
I think the documentary "the game changers" addresses precisely that.
Before you make any life altering decisions and stick to them dogmatically to your potential detriment it's best to investigate extraordinary claims. Especially when it's in a compelling narrative like a movie.
https://elementnutri.com/myth-busting/the-game-changers-debunked/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq4Apc2Xk7Q
IMHO: Vegetarian is well established (millennia old cultures have been veg for 100+ generations) and good to go. Eating eggs, milk products, honey and fish is, all things considered, just fine and dandy.
On top of that if we all just stopped eating beef the world would be a lot better place.
I'm following a Keto diet where I eat meat 2 times a day.
I'm dissatisfied with the state of the science behind the impact of meat on both health and climate. If you search papers/studies on this, you'll find diverging answers.
Pros plant-based people have the movie "The game changers", Pros meat-based people have the movie "The magic pill". You can find a lot of articles that praise/criticize both movies.
A couple videos debunking the film "The Game Changers":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq4Apc2Xk7Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6Ju_HdWB0Y&
According to the game changers documentary, even meat like chicken has to have added vitamins like b12 which is the only reason meat eaters get that extra vitamin, so supplementing is for all
I'd start with a movie, not a book. The movie is "Game Changers", directed by James Cameron, and released last month on Netflix and Amazon Video. If you're skeptical about the science behind the movie, read the critique published in Men's Health magazine along with the rebuttal from one of the MD's interviewed in the film.
Next I'd read "The Engine 2 seven-day rescue diet" by Rip Esselstyn. If you a more in-depth treatment, try "How Not to Die" by Michael Greger, MD. If you want scientific journal articles, I recommend the work of Caldwell Esselstyn. MD and Dean Ornish, MD. Dean Ornish's TED talk is also a good reference.
Please provide evidence? Have you seen The Game Changers movie ?
It's a myth you get more than enough protein on a plant-based diet. I hear that those numbers are bloated and that most people would do fine with 30 to 40g.
Soy would give all the protein you need and then some. Eat soy, lentils, beans, chickpeas. Awesome food for you. Worst case, pea protein powder for body building, but indeed whole foods is ideal instead of highly processed foods.
You should watch the Game Changers movie for more information on vegan body building. Not that I would know anything about it, I haven't been to a gym in 10 years.
There is an interesting film coming soon on meat consumption: The Game Changers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSpglxHTJVM
Produced by James Cameron, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jackie Chan it follows several top level athletes and investigate the myth about the need for animal proteins