Hacker Cinema
What the Health
2017 · Film · documentary · 97 min
Directed by Keegan Kuhn, Kip Andersen
Filmmaker Kip Andersen uncovers the secret to preventing and even reversing chronic diseases, and he investigates why the nation's leading health organizations doesn't want people to know about it.
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21 comments on Hacker News
There's a really interesting clip in the documentary "What The Health" where the interviewer attempts an interview with one of the doctors and gets rejected by the hospital PR person:
Transcript: actually i understand that doctor said that you could film here today but 51:04 unfortunately that's not going to be able to happen i know that he advocates for patients changing their diets but the 51:10 hospital makes money off these surgeries and the reality is he does too so we can't do anything that's gonna 51:16 negatively impact the hospital so unfortunately you're not gonna be able to film here today https://youtu.be/obx7cJtk3fE?t=3064
These "puzzled and alarmed" Doctors need to watch the Netflix documentaries: "What the Health" and "Game Changers". There are others too, including 'Forks and Knives". They will realize what the big pharma and animal products industries are up to. Plant-based diets save health and lives. Wish I knew this much earlier on.
These "puzzled and alarmed" Doctors need to watch the Netflix documentaries: "What the Health" and "Game Changers". There are others too, including 'Forks and Knives". They will realize what the big pharma and animal products industries are up to.
I expect it would have played a lot like What the Health, a similarly buzzy documentary from 2017 making ridiculous false claims about the health benefits of a vegan diet. It got a lot of attention, and people talked passionately in major outlets about how wrong it was, but as far as I can recall (and as far as I can tell from a Google search) the idea that Netflix had some responsibility to downrank it or attach a "fiction" tag was never part of the conversation.
>> "never personally eat meat strikes me as a bit of a neurotic, narcissistic response"
> So avoiding killing is a neurotic, narcissistic response? Like, really?
To industrialized abuse, yeah. It's pretty common for vegans to bring up that farms are abusive and awful. I think a psychologically normal response to that is to try to fix farms. Responding by checking out strikes me as either dishonest or narcissistic -- it says to me that it isn't about the animals, it's about you.
It's perfectly fair to point out that plenty of people do both. Nonetheless, it has always seemed to me that the people involved in realistic, practical efforts to improve animal welfare are also the ones that eat them. Vegan efforts seem to be, by comparison, performative. I suppose it's just an impression, but I find the absolutism a bit unhinged.
> What the Health!
LOL. That film is legendary for having a hilariously poor relationship with medical reality. Is your other stuff that good? XD
> You know that cows giving milk are mothers,
Of course. Being a mother myself, I'm actually pretty familiar with how lactation works in humans, and I'm given to understand cows follow a lot of the same principles.
> forcefully impregnated/raped every year
Well.. this may be technically true, but is a good example of being at odds with biological reality. Cows go into heat and want to get pregnant -- so badly that cows will hurt themselves letting other cows mount them, even when there's no bull available. So the idea that a cow in heat doesn't "consent" to getting pregnant is like . . . I'm not sure what sort of consent you're looking for? Like, they really, really, really obviously want to in any conventional sense of the word. Beyond that, I'm not sure the concept would even apply to cows?
If you're asking whether I have a problem with the artificial insemnation of cows in heat on an annual basis, overseen by a farmer with the health of the cow in mind, my answer is that the question itself is ... LOL. Dude. Check your anthropomorphism.
I have no idea what sort of alternative reality you have in mind for these animals. If they lived in a herd with bulls, you better darn well believe they're getting pregnant as often as biologically possible. The alternative is, I guess, living solo as a pet? I am very okay with cows living sub-pet-quality lives, yes. I think this entire line of inquiry is silly.
It's not like, if these cows could delay pregnancy, they could go to college and it would be good for their career. It's not like they're left with emotional issues that require therapy. The whole process is like nature, but safer. This is the silliest objection EVER.
> with their calf taken from them on the day it's born?
This used to concern me, until I saw them, and they seemed chill. I dunno. Different animals have different attachment to their offspring. This would certainly be cruel to humans; it's necessary and expected with fish. Where are cows on this scale? They... seem pretty chill. Iunno, if they don't care, I don't? And the explanation that was given to me for this practice was to protect the calfs, which makes sense to me.
At any rate -- I know in humans, babies and moms heal each other, both physically and psychologically. I'm completely confident that if it worked that way in cattle, it would be done that way. The people making this tradeoff seem to be thinking of a lot of things, and they seem to love their cows. I'm pretty comfortable with them in charge of that, and at any rate, they certainly seem to have a better handle on the considerations than you do!
> They loudly grieve for days/weeks, sometimes hiding the calf from the farmer only to be taken away from them days later?
Um, no. I have no idea where this idea comes from, but I can say with complete confidence that it's not accurate. On the contrary. Sometimes they can't tell whose calf it is.
Animals. Aren't. People! Different animals are more or less like people in a lot of different ways in this area, and cows are not like people in this one.
> Do you know that producing milk on industrial scale shortens lifespan of cows to cca 1/3 (5-6 years instead of 20+), only to leave the cow exhausted/crippled
... also nowhere close to true. Producing milk does not leave the cow exhausted and crippled. It's a perfectly normal process that I personally have gone through as a human that is not damaging to the body. "Well, you didn't do it industrially" -- no listen, there are humans that do some amazing things in this department. It's hard work, but the idea that it uses up your body somehow is coocoo for cocoa puffs. Quite the opposite. In humans -- and in cows -- the way to high milk production is (a) lots of food and (b) low stress lifestyle and (c) lots of rest. Dairy cows live in a day spa because it's profitable. Facts.
Being old makes these older cows tired, but they are old! Living much longer than they normally would! Where "normal" doesn't mean "with maximum care humans can provide" (which is how you get to 20), but "without human intervention" = in the wild. Yeah, humans can care for some super old cows, and that's lovely. That doesn't mean every cow is owed that. Dairy cows typically live, like, six years? I think they do well at that.
> and killed (changed into burgers) in the end?
Of course! That's part of their job!
> Why we drink cow milk? Why not rat milk, giraffe milk, dog milk, human milk ... why it has to be cow milk?
I mean, I think, globally speaking, we drink goat milk. Cows are easy in this context, I guess? It's cultural, I guess? I have no idea what your point is?
> Why are cca 50-70% of people milk intolerant?
Hehehehehe the interesting and awesome thing is that 50-30% of people (to use your numbers) are NOT! The persistence of the gene that allows the processing of lactose is SUPER advantageous and an absolute historical civilization GAME CHANGER! Cows built civilization!!! Which is awesome. :)
> Do you know about pus in the milk?
Ehhh... to me, this is a little like worrying about the presence of ground up bugs in coffee or flour or whatever. Or like, did you know basically all of your food has an allowable percentage of rat poop, and it isn't zero? Biological processes are messy. It's never gonna be zero. Sorry. But it's small and it isn't dangerous. They actually do a really good job sanitizing those cows, IMO.
> About linked diseases like parkinsons and other autoimmune diseases linked to milk?
That is a whole bucket o' worms, so I'll just say I'm hip to the medical implications of milk and not personally worried.
> That cow eating grass near industrial factory will eat more pollutants in a day than somebody living near breathing air for 14 years? About bioaccumulation of toxins in the milk/meat?
I know the industry is super aware of this phenomenon and is far more careful about it than I can police them to be. :)
> About all proteins/b12 coming from plants/bacteria, not from the animals?
I did not know that about B12! Pubmed says, "We depend on B-12 producing bacteria in ruminant stomachs." Rad. Though that seems to hurt your case. ;)
Understand your points of view. I too ate meat for a long time. I too defended that position with same ferocity you do. But I was wrong to do it.
And you're wrong on too many points to discuss it at full - sorry, no space here, also have family to feed and work to do. My bookmarks folder about dangers of animal products/agriculture has hundreds of items. I'll cherrypick just few of them to get you started.
You'll find several of your viewpoints discussed here:
https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en
Want to learn more? (pun intended)
Movies:
- I'd recommend Dominion movie again, but you won't probably see it, and even if you do, i don't think the suffering of animals/horrors of the meat production will be enough to change your opinions, so I'll talk about it from different angle.
- Cowspiracy
- Seaspiracy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7JE8j5Ncmw - This man makes you think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI - Dairy is scary
Health:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rNY7xKyGCQ - Dr. Michael Greger | How Not To Die
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnHYHjchn6w - Foods for Protecting the Body & Mind: Dr. Neal Barnard
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/whatthehealth - What the Health! (2017)
Impacts on biodiversity / climate change:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_meat_production
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/30/us-food-production-climate-crisis-meat-monopoly-farming
https://www.salon.com/2022/11/11/the-meat-industry-is-borrowing-tactics-from-big-oil-to-obfuscate-the-truth-about-climate-change/
OK, I'll react to few of your points.
> "never personally eat meat strikes me as a bit of a neurotic, narcissistic response"
So avoiding killing is a neurotic, narcissistic response? Like, really?
> "to avoid ice cream to spare dairy cows who are clearly, if you meet them, quite happy with their jobs"
Are you sure? I've met a lot of them, when i was a child. You know that cows giving milk are mothers, forcefully impregnated/raped every year, with their calf taken from them on the day it's born? They loudly grieve for days/weeks, sometimes hiding the calf from the farmer only to be taken away from them days later? Do you know that producing milk on industrial scale shortens lifespan of cows to cca 1/3 (5-6 years instead of 20+), only to leave the cow exhausted/crippled and killed (changed into burgers) in the end?
Why we drink cow milk? Why not rat milk, giraffe milk, dog milk, human milk ... why it has to be cow milk? Why are cca 50-70% of people milk intolerant? Do you know about pus in the milk? About linked diseases like parkinsons and other autoimmune diseases linked to milk? That cow eating grass near industrial factory will eat more pollutants in a day than somebody living near breathing air for 14 years? About bioaccumulation of toxins in the milk/meat? About all proteins/b12 coming from plants/bacteria, not from the animals?
> And your next point - war.
You're clearly an american. Your country is the only country in the world being involved in wars constantly for 250+ years, achieving so little for so high a price. Your viewpoints mirror the indocrination you've received. It does not reflect reality either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_conflicts_involving_the_United_States
I could go on and on, have to go, leaving you to it, sorry.
Have you seen the documentary What The Health? Thoughts?
coagulated cow puss --> cheese (got this one from "What The Health" documentary on Netflix)
I have little doubt BTC price is being manipulated.
Its price was kept very low for the longest time so some very powerful organizations such as Bakkt (backed by the same people behind NYSE) could accumulate most of its market supply. At the moment the price is being artificially pumped up to build momentum until enough people from the public buy into it, then its price will once again start dropping faster than gravity.
You often can attribute the exact reasons why a stock price went up, but for BTC it seems to be a complete mystery black box that even the most well-versed traders couldn't tell you the exact reasons why it went up.
For stock price for example, you just knew in advanced even from last year that Beyond Meat's stock was going to be a hit. "What The Health", an anti meat industry and pro vegans documentary film, was a HUGE success last year and you could see from miles away everything was set up for this trend to become mainstream in 2019 as public sentiments were beginning to swing very positively towards it. For BTC however, everything just seems like a wild guess as no one could pin point exactly what drives its price.
I recommend watching What The Health (https://www.whatthehealthfilm.com/) - a great doc by the same guys who did Cowspiracy, this time focusing on the health and lobyy aspects of the meat and diary industry.
Negative lobbying is something that fills me with anger unlike any other and not eating meat and diary JUST to stop giving those fuckers my money is reason enough. Of course, there are many other great reasons to do so (animal welfare, environment, health) - and no objectively good reason to eat meat and diary.
And no, reasons such as:
- "We need meat to be healthy"
- "Humans meant to be eat meat historically"
- "I love the taste and this is a free country"
Are either scientifically wrong or not objectively good reasons.
There is a pretty good documentation about that topic Valles "what the health" on Netflix. Doctors don't get diet education and don't know how important food is for our health. Watch the movie, it's pretty good!
If the extensively[1] debunked[2] "What the Health" makes your list, I'm skeptical of the standards to which you hold your sources.
Can you provide peer reviewed papers making claims comparable to the sources you provided?
[1] https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/science-and-health/2017/7/25/16018658/what-the-health-documentary-review-vegan-diet
[2] http://time.com/4897133/vegan-netflix-what-the-health/
I 100% agree we need to change our factory farming practices...
However, What the Health was riddled with lies, bad science, and misinformation.
https://www.dietdoctor.com/health-review-health-claims-backed-no-solid-evidence
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/7/25/16018658/what-the-health-documentary-review-vegan-diet
Even a vegan dietitian admits it is full of misinformation and bad science and calls for an end to this practice https://www.vegan.com/posts/vegan-dietitian-review-what-the-health/
I saw "Beef is a class 2A carcinogen" and suspect you just watched "What the health"? If so there are claims that that movie got a few things wrong. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-the-health-a-movie-with-an-agenda/
Look at how popular organic, ethical and local food has become in the last few years. You have restaurant chains based on these ideas, supermarkets like Whole Foods, and food processors like Amy’s. This is because consumers are voting with their wallet. I like to think it’s been inspired in part by documentaries like Fast Food Nation, What The Health and Supersize Me, certainly that’s how I became a more conscious consumer.
Cowspiracy has some bad science, but What the Health is pure lies. You should never get your science from documentaries they are all bullshit.
https://www.quora.com/How-accurate-is-the-movie-Cowspiracy
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/7/25/16018658/what-the-health-documentary-review-vegan-diet
Even vegans agree : https://www.vegan.com/posts/vegan-dietitian-review-what-the-health/
>As a vegan health professional, I am sometimes mortified to be associated with the junk science that permeates our community. And as an animal rights activist, I’m disheartened by advocacy efforts that can make us look scientifically illiterate, dishonest, and occasionally like a cult of conspiracy theorists.
Drawdown.org places "Plant-rich diet" as the 4th most effective change we can make to combat climate change.
http://www.drawdown.org/solutions-summary-by-rank
So there's a good deal more at stake here than just optimal protein digestibility uptake rates.
Anecdotal, but I recently placed first in my age group and 5th overall in a trail marathon on a nearly vegan diet. Two other the other four in front of me were vegans. In another recent half marathon with over 1,000 runners, a near-vegan diet helped secure 4th out of 90 in my age group, close to the top 10% overall. I wasn't counting calories and certainly not protein. I did lose to close to 30 lbs while also getting faster. I used to have an "afternoon slump" at work, but that's rare now, even when running 7 miles before work.
For more interviews with scientists, the Cowspiracy movie (bad name) helps explain why animal agriculture has ended up as a top cause of climate change, and the newer movie "What the Health" interviews a number of doctors and scientists about the relationship between plant-based foods and health.
According to the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, egg consumption can cause heart disease, diabetes and cancer. Reference: http://www.pcrm.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/health/Nutrition-Fact-Sheets/Eggs-fact-sheet.pdf The movie "What the Health" covers similar research results
I recently pondered the possibility that this is happening in the vegetable industry right now. There are seemingly endless documentaries on Netflix at the moment promoting better health through vegetables (What the Health, Forks vs. Knives, etc). They have some compelling evidence towards their claims, but also towards possible corruptions within foundations such as the AHA and the Beef, Pork and poultry industries.
Sure, it sounds like something a conspiracist would think up, but it'd just be the same tactics that these groups claim the meat industry et. al. have done to us for years, right?
> There is a group of Type 2 diabetics in remission who are doing just fine on meat-based and keto-based diets
But how are their arteries looking?
> but I have yet to run across [a vegetarian/vegan] in remission on no medication, for two years or longer, so they might be rare
How many have you run into? How strictly were they following a whole-food plant-based diet? What is your sample size?
Scientifically speaking, the movie "What The Health" summarizes the facts succinctly:
Low Fat, Plant-Based Diet is More than Twice as Powerful at Controlling and/or Reversing Diabetes, than the ADA Diet Recommending Meat and Dairy
See http://www.whatthehealthfilm.com/facts/ for a list of citations supporting that statement.
Hormones that give man-boobs, infertility and all kinds of crazy shit. Here is a couple of studies, but there is lots: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524299/, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11392381, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12477510, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24636397
Saturated fat, which is the reason people gets type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease and heart disease. I don't believe I need to link you any sources for that, since it's common knowledge and agreed about. In dairy, the amount of saturated fat is really high. It's why oil (when taken out of it's natural package like olive oil is taken out of it's natural package: the olive) is also bad for you. It's 100% saturated fat instead of in the natural package where for every gram of oil you were also getting some fibers, some carbs and so on.
Cholesterol. Same with saturated fat, although it's less bad. But the thing is that humans need to consume no cholesterol what so ever, so for every mg of cholesterol you consume, you simply add to your overall amount of ldl (also called bad) cholesterol, which has the same effect as saturated fat. All the cholesterol we need (hdl cholesterol) is something we produce our self.
As little as the amount of dairy in three glasses of milk a day (which many get by drinking one glass, putting some on their cereal and then eating a lot of cheese too) is also found to increase ones chances of prostate and colon cancer.
And the thing about dairy is that it is a complete scam. We learn as children that we should consume milk to build strong bones and get protein, but it's just not true. If you eat enough (varied) food (as in a completely normal proper diet), you will never be deficient in neither calcium nor protein. And studies show that you can't just consume more calcium to get stronger bones, it doesn't work like that, so drinking more milk to get even stronger bones is also completely fallacy. The dairy industry want us to believe milk is the raw power of nature, but in fact the only milk humans should consume is the milk our mothers produce, and when we are done we that, we don't need to consume milk anymore, especially not bovine milk. Cows milk is liquid growth food for a calf, that's it. There is nothing good in milk that you can't get from a better source, but there is a whole lot of bad stuff.
If you are interested, I suggest these two[1] sources[2]. Those sites are obviously biased towards plant-based diets, but with good reason and they cite all their facts to scientific sources that you can check out with a simple google search using the number of the research paper, so you can check what they are saying out for yourself. I've never found it to be wrong.
If you are even more interested and like to watch documentaries, you should check out Cowspiracy[3] and What The Health[4]. They are great, and all facts used are available on their respective websites with links to the sources and explanations and so on.
[1]: https://nutritionfacts.org/?fwp_search=dairy&fwp_content_type=video
[2]: http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/vegdiets/health-concerns-about-dairy-products
[3]: http://www.cowspiracy.com
[4]: http://www.whatthehealthfilm.com